{"id":1141,"date":"2017-02-23T18:51:17","date_gmt":"2017-02-23T17:51:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/?page_id=1141"},"modified":"2022-05-16T15:43:04","modified_gmt":"2022-05-16T13:43:04","slug":"fac-spaces","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/?page_id=1141","title":{"rendered":"FAC Spaces"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>A Noetherian space is a space in which every open is compact, see [1], Section 9.7 for example.<br \/>\nNoetherian spaces have the very nice property that every closed subset is a <em>finite<\/em> union of irreducible closed subsets, and that generalizes the theorem (attributed to Erd\u00f6s and Tarski) that, in a well-quasi-ordered set, every downwards-closed subset is a finite union of ideals.<\/p>\n<p>That property has been used by me and my colleagues repeatedly over the last few years, and is fundamental in the study of so-called well-structured transition systems, which are transition systems in which the state space is well-quasi-ordered, and in which the transition relation is monotonic.<\/p>\n<p>In 2016, Alain Finkel discovered that coverability, one of the fundamental decidable problems in well-structured transition systems, remains decidable if one relaxes &#8220;well-quasi-ordered&#8221; by &#8220;FAC&#8221; (unpublished, as far as I know).\u00a0 A poset is <em>FAC<\/em> if and only if it has the finite antichain property, namely, if and only if all its antichains (sets of pairwise incomparable elements) are finite.<\/p>\n<p>One of the keys to that discovery is the following theorem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Thm<\/strong> (Kabil and Pouzet) [2, Lemma 5.3].\u00a0 A poset is FAC if and only if every downwards-closed subset is a finite union of ideals.<\/p>\n<p>Hence one has a full characterization of those posets in which downwards-closed subsets are finite union of ideals.\u00a0 Well-quasi-orders have this property, but the spaces that have this property, more generally, are all the FAC posets.\u00a0 For example, the poset of integers, <strong>Z<\/strong>, is FAC, but not well-quasi-ordered, since it is not well-founded.\u00a0 In general, every totally ordered space is FAC.<\/p>\n<p>Whence my question:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Is there a similar characterization of those topological spaces (call them FAC spaces) in which every closed subset is a finite union of irreducible closed subsets?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Maybe that is known, but I don&#8217;t know.\u00a0 [Corrigendum, October 30th, 2017: that problem is now <a href=\"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/?page_id=1272\">solved<\/a>.]<\/p>\n<p>A few things I know:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The FAC spaces that are also Alexandroff spaces are exactly the Alexandroff spaces of a FAC poset.\u00a0 (That should come as no surprise.)<\/li>\n<li>Every topological space <em>X<\/em> such that every closed subspace <em>C<\/em> has a dense Noetherian subspace <em>D<\/em>, is FAC.<br \/>\nThis is easy: <em>D<\/em> is closed in itself and Noetherian, hence is a finite union <em>I<\/em><sub>1<\/sub> \u222a <em>I<\/em><sub>2<\/sub> \u222a \u00b7\u00b7\u00b7 \u222a <em>I<sub>n<\/sub><\/em> of irreducible closed subsets of <em>D<\/em>.\u00a0 Let cl(<em>A<\/em>) denote the closure of <em>A<\/em> in <em>X<\/em>, for any subset\u00a0<em>A<\/em> of\u00a0<em>X<\/em>.\u00a0 By density, <em>C<\/em>=cl(<em>D<\/em>)=cl(<em>I<\/em><sub>1<\/sub>) \u222a cl(<em>I<\/em><sub>2<\/sub>) \u222a \u00b7\u00b7\u00b7 \u222a cl(<em>I<sub>n<\/sub><\/em>), and each cl(<em>I<sub>k<\/sub><\/em>) is irreducible closed in <em>X<\/em> [1, Lemma 8.4.10].<br \/>\nThis argument is similar to one in Kabil and Pouzet&#8217;s proof.\u00a0 Here is how they show that every downwards-closed subset <em>C<\/em> in a FAC space must be a finite union of ideals.\u00a0 They notice that ideals and irreducible closed subsets are the same thing in that setting.\u00a0 Next, by an observation due to Hausdorff, <em>C<\/em> has a cofinal well-founded subset <em>D<\/em>.\u00a0 Then <em>D<\/em>, being well-founded and FAC, is well-quasi-ordered.\u00a0 It follows that <em>D<\/em> is a finite union of ideals <em>I<\/em><sub>1<\/sub> \u222a <em>I<\/em><sub>2<\/sub> \u222a \u00b7\u00b7\u00b7 \u222a <em>I<sub>n<\/sub><\/em> (ideals in\u00a0<em>D<\/em>, not\u00a0<em>C<\/em>). Write \u2193<em>A<\/em> for downwards-closure of <em>A<\/em> in <em>X<\/em>.\u00a0 We now check that, by cofinality, <em>C<\/em>=\u2193<em>D<\/em>=\u2193<em>I<\/em><sub>1<\/sub> \u222a \u2193<em>I<\/em><sub>2<\/sub> \u222a \u00b7\u00b7\u00b7 \u222a \u2193<em>I<sub>n<\/sub><\/em>, and each \u2193<em>I<sub>k<\/sub><\/em> is an ideal in <em>X<\/em>.<\/li>\n<li>I conjecture that the converse is wrong.\u00a0 Let me ask that in a neutral form: are the FAC spaces exactly those such that every closed subspace has a dense Noetherian subspace?<\/li>\n<li>Since the property of being a FAC space only depends on its lattice of closed sets, a topological space <em>X<\/em> is FAC if and only if its sobrification <strong>S<\/strong><em>X<\/em> is FAC.<\/li>\n<li>The sober FAC spaces are exactly the spaces where every closed set is finitary.\u00a0 A <em>finitary<\/em> closed set is a set of the form \u2193{<em>x<\/em><sub>1<\/sub>, <em>x<\/em><sub>2<\/sub>, \u00b7\u00b7\u00b7,\u00a0 <em>x<sub>n<\/sub><\/em>}, where \u2193 denotes downward closure with respect to the specialization ordering \u2264.\u00a0 This is obvious, considering that, in a sober space, every irreducible subset is the closure of a (unique) point.\u00a0 In particular, the topology of a sober FAC space is the upper topology of \u2193, since that is the coarsest topology where every finitary closed subset is closed.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ol>\n<li>Jean Goubault-Larrecq. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cambridge.org\/fr\/academic\/subjects\/mathematics\/geometry-and-topology\/non-hausdorff-topology-and-domain-theory-selected-topics-point-set-topology?format=HB&amp;isbn=9781107034136\">Non-Hausdorff Topology and Domain Theory \u2014 Selected Topics in Point-Set Topology<\/a>. New Mathematical Monographs 22. Cambridge University Press, 2013.<\/li>\n<li>M. Kabil and M. Pouzet. Une extension d\u2019un th\u00e9or\u00e8me de P. Julien sur les \u00e2ges de mots. Informatique th\u00e9orique et applications, 26(5):449\u2013482, 1992.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p style=\"text-align: right;\">\u2014 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/~goubault\/?l=en\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-993\">Jean Goubault-Larrecq<\/a>(February 23rd, 2017)<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-993 alignright\" src=\"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/08\/jgl-2011.png\" alt=\"jgl-2011\" width=\"32\" height=\"44\" \/><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A Noetherian space is a space in which every open is compact, see [1], Section 9.7 for example. Noetherian spaces have the very nice property that every closed subset is a finite union of irreducible closed subsets, and that generalizes &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/?page_id=1141\">Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_crdt_document":"","footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-1141","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/1141","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1141"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/1141\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5334,"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/1141\/revisions\/5334"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/projects.lsv.ens-paris-saclay.fr\/topology\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1141"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}